Posted by: The Informal Matriarch | January 30, 2008

Hug a Homo!

Sorry if the title was offensive…I don’t want to offend any homosexuals in what I’m about to say.

sva_rainbow_flag.gifI’m going out on a limb when I say this, but I don’t think Christ intended us to be so awful to homosexuals. It’s a weird thing amongst Christians though, it seems like the sin of all sins. The thing you DON’T want to EVER be is gay because then you’ll go to Hell for sure!!

I totally think gay people can be Christians. I totally think they aren’t the worst of the worst and I totally think that Christ would love the church to accept them more. Not because being gay isn’t “sin” (I don’t think it isn’t and I don’t know if it actually is), not because they need to be current and get with the times but because we are all with sin. We are all in denial of how sinful we actually are.

You can’t say that a gay person cannot be accepted because they refuse to change. I’m sure most of them, especially Christian ones, have tried their very dandiest to change and have no been able to. Like a lot of us have tried and failed at being “sinless”. Not an easy task. Not a realistic goal.

Christ wants us to have joy and happiness in our lives. I can’t see how a loving God would condemn someone to hell because they couldn’t help themselves. I truly believe that some/most homosexuals are born that way. They feel so deeply for the same sex, just as heterosexuals feel for the opposite sex. I can’t say that I wouldn’t give into it. I’ve never been there or felt that way. I definitely give in to a lot of sin every day. Humans can’t help it! Just because I didn’t win the “genetic lottery” doesn’t mean I’m more worthy of going to Heaven!

What disgusts me is that I know for a fact that most Christians would be more offended to see a very committed gay couple walking hand in hand down the street than to see some hetero dude picking up a chick in hopes to put one more notch in his bed-post. Unreal.twomenhugging-thumb689533.jpeg

I think most Christians feel that gay people are inherently promiscuous. Which might be a very big reality for some of them but I’m pretty sure the sexual immorality is about even on the gay/hetero scale. How many of you Mennonite kids did the math and realized that you were either born early or Mommy and Daddy are hiding something? I know a few of you already.

My theology teacher in Bible college told us something very interesting. That when they did talk about gays in the Bible they were speaking more into the idolatry that was going on at the time because the two of them went together. She suggested that it was more the religions they were following and the crazy orgies and things they were doing than it was the idea of being homosexual. Something to think about at least.

At any rate, Christ didn’t come for those who can help themselves. He came for the weak, for the sinners, for the prostitutes and I’m sorry folks but I really think he came for the homos too! If church is meant for the ones who have it all together, I shouldn’t be going and neither

should you!

Posted in Christ, Christian, Christianity, Gay, Jesus, Morality, Sin, Theology, church, homosexual, sexuality

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Responses

Absolutely spot on - I’m with Desmond Tutu on this. Christ loved EVERYONE, excepting NO-ONE (and no-one has ever yet been able to explain to me where homosexuality is explicitly condemmed)
A gay man could no more enter a sexual relationship with a woman than a straight man could enter one with another man. If as Christians we percieve that we are created in God’s image we either accept that he made some people Gay or we don’t - it’s really that simple.
I enjoyed your post.
Jim

By: jimh76 on January 30, 2008
at 8:46 am

Another excellent post. I have several friends who are gay, and they have shared with my that the impression they get from the church is that they are not accepted because of their lifestyle. The truth of it is that they absolutely can be Christians, just like an alcoholic or a porn-addict can. And that is not to say that all of those are equal, but the point remains. Christ came for all. Not just we heteros.

By: adam on January 30, 2008
at 1:40 pm

I know I’m going to write a lot; but your article is worth it. Great job by the way.

Yes, gay’s can be Christian. It’s the man-made church that says we cannot be; not God himself. I’m not going to argue gay as sinful or not as that would be a small text-book to leave as a comment. But I do know this, whether or not you believe [you being the general public and not specifically You] it is, it was one of Christ’s principal teachings to have compassion and to not judge one another. The ultimate judgement is not yours to give; we all know whose it is.

Growing up, one of the hardest things for me to do was to figure out why God made me be born with such a burden on my shoulders. I was raised Mormon and everything they taught told me that I was going straight to hell and that I wasn’t worthy of God’s grace; it terrified me. I “faked” my way through most of my life until I was able to go to college and take every religion course I could. The truth set me free and I was able to be openly gay and Christian without feeling guilty. God knows my heart and, as long as I live a moral [morality is subjective] and compassionate, God will love me and I have nothing to worry about.

Sorta along the lines of what your teacher said in Bible college dings right, but I don’t think he’s hitting the point on the head. He’s referencing the specific passages that mention, not homosexuality, explicit sexual activities during temple rituals. There is also a major line in Lev 18:22 that lists out that a man should not lie with another man “as with a woman”. This could be interpreted many ways, but not as “homosexuality is a sin”. That entire chapter of Leviticus was a specific list of activities that qualify under the 7th sin; Adultery. However, in order to commit adultery you need to be first married. All it says is to NOT sleep with another man in place of your wife. Do not cheat on your wife with another man. The rest of the chapters lists: sleeping with animals, sleeping with your sister in law, your mother, your sister, etc. If it had been meant to combat homosexuality, it would have read “Do not lie with a man.” “As with a Woman” can add so much more meaning and clarity behind the intended moral guideline.

I have many more translations of Lev 18:22 if you’re interested. I wrote a blog on it recently I think.

Ultimately, I don’t need to prove this to others; just to myself. If I can prove to myself that I’m doing nothing wrong or immoral or sinful, then I can have a relationship with God that is true and not based on guilt and fear; ultimately, that’s what Jesus Christ taught.

By: Myles on January 30, 2008
at 3:40 pm

“God knows my heart and, as long as I live a moral [morality is subjective] and compassionate, God will love me and I have nothing to worry about.” - myles

That’s great and everything but God will love you even if you’re not moral and compassionate. :)

By: pluckymama on January 30, 2008
at 6:42 pm

I think we should put all the sinless people on an island and let them fend for themselves :)

By: Aunty Jennie on January 30, 2008
at 10:14 pm

Amen

By: pluckymama on January 30, 2008
at 10:19 pm

Homosexuality is not a “heaven or hell” issue. The only determining factor is whether a person has been reconciled to God through Jesus Christ.

First Corinthians 6:9–11 says,
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Paul makes a distinction between unchristian behavior and Christian behavior. He’s saying, “You’re not pagans anymore, you are a holy people belonging to King Jesus. Now act like it!”

Those who go to hell are those who cling to their sin, refusing to confess and repent of it. Hell is the garbage dump of the universe, and those who identify with their garbage instead of their Creator become garbage–which is burned.

If homosexuality doesn’t send anyone to hell, then can the believer indulge in homosexual behavior, secure in his or her eternal security? As Paul said, “May it never be!” If someone is truly a child of God, he or she cannot persist in sinful behavior that offends and grieves the Father without suffering the consequences. God disciplines those He loves.

the Lord Jesus did not avoid sinners but ministered grace and compassion to them–WITHOUT ever compromising His commitment to holiness.

In Shadow of Sodom, Paul Mooris wrote,

But if I were a Christian homosexual, I think this one question would disturb me most: am I trying to interpret Scripture in the light of my proclivity, or should I interpret my proclivity in the light of Scripture?
The only way Christians can take the homosexuality position is by explaining away the very clear biblical passages. Often, they elevate love as the only virtue worth pursuing, thus attempting to sanctify homosexual “love.” However, God’s holiness cannot and must not be ignored in the pursuit of love, and homosexual acts are grossly unholy because of their unnatural, immoral nature.

2 Timothy 3:17 - 4:
16) All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17) so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

4:1) In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus, who will judge the living and the dead, and in view of his appearing and his kingdom, I give you this charge: 2) Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage—with great patience and careful instruction. 3) For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

God is not calling us to judge the world or the sins of people but to seek holiness and guidance by His Word given to us. He has given His Word for us to teach, train, rebuke and correct for righteousness sake.

I seek righteouseness, that is why I have turned away form my addiction to pornography. I no longer wanted to satisfy the self, I want to glorify God.

By: Jeremy Olson on February 2, 2008
at 3:11 am

“You’re not pagans anymore, you are a holy people belonging to King Jesus. Now act like it!”

He’s not saying act like moral people, he’s saying that we need to act like Jesus’ children. There’s nothing about morality in that statement whatsoever.

By: pluckymama on February 2, 2008
at 5:06 am

PS good for you for not looking at porn anymore. I don’t think that not satisfying yourself is glorifying God. You are actually satisfying yourself by not watching porno because it’s good for you to not watch porno. If you want to stop all self gratifying things then you should go ahead and become a gnostic :)

By: pluckymama on February 2, 2008
at 5:07 am

“Neither the sexually immoral” The passage starts by establishing moral discontent and than proclaims the new person in Christ because of Christ. God gives some of His examples of what things of immorality that are not part of the new person, the person that is to glorify God fully.

“And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ. ”

THAT IS WHAT OU WERE” Christ washed me with His blood, justified me with His tortured, spit on, laughed at body and sanctified me by the Holy Spirit.

As a christian, that was once addicted to pornography, I have been washed, justified and sanctified of it. I died to it because God is the one to be glorified not my sexual desires.

God wants me to be fully available to glorify God, especially in the way that I live my life as a husband and a father.

The point of this passage is for God to say, here is your before but with Christ, here is you now.

I want to love and be compassionate to everyone as Christ was and is but it must be in a commitment to holiness not in reflection to culture, human logic or personal feelings.

By: Jeremy Olson on February 2, 2008
at 6:01 am

I think you were washed, justified and sanctified of your porn addiction while you were doing it. Christ didn’t die on the cross to one day forgive your sins, he did it then and there. It is finished.

By: pluckymama on February 2, 2008
at 6:28 am

Romans 6: 19-23
19) I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20) When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21) What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22) But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23) For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in[b] Christ Jesus our Lord.

I can show you passage after passge about repentance from sin, weather it is sin in addiction to porn or to homosexuality.

I am a slave to righteousness, I must die to satisfying the self, take up my cross daily, repent and turn away from sin so I can glorify God fully not so I can do what ever pleases me.

It doesn’t matter what you and I think, all that matters is God being glorified, this is what we were created to do, glorify God, not self.

Stand at the Grand Canyons and you will be in AWE of it’s vastness and beauty, you will not be thinking about how you can satisfy yourself because where you are standing will do it for you. This is God, the Grand Canyon for the Christian, enjoy glorifying God and you will be satified beyond porn addiction and homosexuality. This is the hope for the homosexual, porn addict, drunk, prostitute, thief, etc…

It’s not about you being satisfied but God being glorified.

By: Jeremy Olson on February 2, 2008
at 7:42 am

So um, my point was….

Jesus accepts gay people too.

I’m not very much concerned about your self sacrificing ways. I’m sure you have a lot of sin in your life regardless. Red flags would fly into the air if you thought you didn’t.

The way you interpret Biblical verses is you own business. You seem to think it’s very righteous to make yourself a sacrifice to God.

I think God wants us to be happy. I’m not worshiping some pompous jerk in the sky who wants me to bow down and have an unhappy life just so he feels glorified. I’m the happiest when I know my children are happy. I think God gave us that as a glimpse to how he feels about us.

The good thing about this all is that Christ died for our misunderstandings. So, even though you or I are wrong (which I’m sure we both are) Christ has forgiven us.

And now…back to discussions about gays and their acceptance as Christians by MOI and (I think) by Jesus!

By: pluckymama on February 2, 2008
at 9:10 am

I am the first person to admit that I sin and in no way am I trying to sound self righteous, for that I apologize. The point I’m trying to make is this. Every person sins (some are more noticeable than others but it is all sin); Jesus came to earth to die for each of us - it is up to us to receive that free gift. Until we take that free gift, we are not a child of God. He is waiting and wanting every person to accept his free gift (Jesus) and to live a life that glorifies Him. And yes, when we accept Jesus and ask Him to forgive us, He does want us to leave our sin behind and follow Him.

First Corinthians 6:9–11 says,
Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

How do you interpret this passage written by Paul to the church of Corinth. The issue’s of homosexuality were probably more prodominant then than it is now.

By: Jeremy Olson on February 2, 2008
at 10:59 pm

I see that verse as him not saying that they became moral but that Christ forgave them. There’s nothing in that verse that says “but then you stopped your immorality” but it does say that they were washed, sanctified and JUSTIFIED in the name of JESUS not in the name of becoming moral.

They were all of those immoral things until Jesus came. He’s pretty much saying that Christ covers that all for you even if you don’t change.

There’s nothing wrong with being moral. It effects every part of your life. It’s healthy and good for you to be a moral person. God digs that.

Does that make sense?

By: pluckymama on February 3, 2008
at 1:14 am

I hear what you are saying, it’s like saying God loves us the way we are.

What does it mean to you to be washed, why did God use this word?

When it says they were washed what were they washed of.

By: Jeremy Olson on February 3, 2008
at 5:16 pm

I think Christ’s death on the cross washed away our sins. We ourselves do not need to wash away our sins to achieve grace. It’s not even waiting for us. We’ve always had it.

I am in no way promoting that we all now go out and have an orgie and do drugs. I’m just saying that morality has NOTHING to do with our salvation. Grace is a very holistic thing. 100% inclusive.

By: pluckymama on February 3, 2008
at 6:46 pm

Romans 6:1) What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2) By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

Christ did not die a horrible death to allow us to be washed clean of our sins so we could keep on sinning but to lead us away from sin into a life focused in righteousness and holiness.

My wife is a gracious wife and has forgiven me for living out a life of addiction to pornography. I asked her to forgive me because of what it did in hurting her and our relationship. Her grace is not a once and for all grace that allows me to keep on looking at porn it is a grace that she offers me so I can come to her and say I am sorry when I do anything that hurts her.

Romans 6:15) What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

By: Jeremy Olson on February 3, 2008
at 10:17 pm

I disagree but I also understand that you’ll never agree with me. So I’m agreeing to disagree.

thanks for your opinions.

By: pluckymama on February 4, 2008
at 1:39 am

Do you disagree with Gods Word?
Romans 6:1
1) What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2) By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

By: Jeremy Olson on February 4, 2008
at 4:55 am

No Jeremy, I disagree with you and I’m alright with your disagreeing with me.

By: pluckymama on February 4, 2008
at 7:09 am

I know I’m jumping into the middle here but I’ve been following along.

I never really get the idea that Paul is trying to tell people that if they don’t get their act together (morally) that salvation will slip by them. Because it would imply that salvation then lies within our work and ability and we then have to fulfill the Law. If Christ has truly freed us from sin then the good news of the gospel is that our morality (law) no longer stands in the way of the gift God offers us anymore than our good behavior gets us in. (Sorry of the over simplification of the Gospel, it is a big topic)

While this might leave me at odds with some of the things Paul writes about, I would rather carefully look at the intention of Paul’s message that it doesn’t go against what Christ has just done. I believe this is one of the reasons why the Church (global) has struggled interpreting scripture. Nothing about it is simple and just when you think it is, it isn’t. All bible translations have their own point of view because translating hebrew/greek word for word to our language is challenging to say the least (I’m not a scholar but trust that those who tell me this, love me and aren’t trying to fool me :) ) So some of the details of our translations are sometimes best guesses which skew the perspective. This doesn’t discourage me because I do believe in the Living God who guides and counsels us in every moment. So while I might have trouble balancing what I read from the bible, I do have a community of believers and the Spirit to walk with me.

By: Brent on February 4, 2008
at 8:06 am

Great post Pluck.

By: WhoreChurch on February 4, 2008
at 4:38 pm

Thanks Brent and Whore

ha ha

By: pluckymama on February 4, 2008
at 5:28 pm

Wow! - one of the things I always love, when a conversation comes down to “it says in corinthians xxx or Luke x:xx” is that the conversation is not is attic greek, or aramaic or hebrew.
Interpretation and translation are the key. What is clear, however, whichever way you translate the bible is that God is about love, Christ is about acceptance and love of all. He seemed to have a big downer on “immorality” - i.e. shagging around probably because it was hurtful and contrary to love. It isn’t clear that his downer was on Gay love at all. So the choice, in my simple mind is this. Do you err on the side of love and acceptance or the side of condemnation and threat? WWJD indeed!

Sorry to but in.

JH

By: jimh76 on February 4, 2008
at 5:46 pm

Thank you pluckymama for stating your thoughts. As a Christian with a few gay friends and at least one family member, I appreciate what you wrote.

By: domesticshorthair on February 4, 2008
at 6:16 pm

No problem :)

By: pluckymama on February 4, 2008
at 6:24 pm

I grew up in a very traditional church that I believe did more damage than good sometimes. Many of the people in it were presenting a strong outward stance on morals but yet didn’t have a deep inward expression of the fruits of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, kindness, self control) and didn’t extend grace and forgiveness much.

We were poor, 4 boys and parents on welfare. We went to church each week in our suit and ties but at home we were abused by a father who had a Bible in one hand and a 2X4 in the other.

I grew up with such a wacked view of God, I sometimes saw God as a judge and a lightning bolt thrower but at the same time God kept on showing me people who really did want to express who God really was, a God who IS LOVE.

My third foster home parents were different Christians than what I had experienced. I would come home and their would be a prostitute living in the bedroom next to me or a recovering drug addict another time. They told me of a male prostitute that lived with them in Toronto for some time while getting off the streets. They are passionate about loving as Christ did.

I would stay up till 3 in the morning with my foster dad studying the Bible and he taught me about striving for a heart that was not blocked by my own desires. He showed me scripture that spoke in ways that inspired me to express love while living in purity.

They didn’t love people because of good morals but because they saw hurting people who were living in sin and needed to experience the freedom of Christ and his immence love for them.

I think we see people more through their issues instead of as people who are hurting and in need of the experiece of Christs Love.

I do beleive that God wants us to expereince His love so we can see a better way of life than the sin we are in. I beleive He wants us to be free from sin. It is not a matter of taking a bath before accepting Christ but that Christ is our bath and everyday we should take a bath like that.

By: olsaners on February 4, 2008
at 9:31 pm

Thanks for sharing that!

By: pluckymama on February 4, 2008
at 10:35 pm

Pluckymama and all who read,

As a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ there are a few things that I feel obligated to comment on in regards to this post. Before I comment on this post I would like to make a small points.

The term “we can agree to disagree” is one of the biggest copouts used by individuals today and to my sadness used by many Christians. People use it as an excuse to to admit that they are wrong. In majority of circumstances this praise cannot be used.
Two parties can be right about a subject. If I say “ that tree has leaves” and you say “ that tree is green” we are both write but that is on an observation. But if you say “ The world is flat” and I show you a picture of it round, you cannot answer “well, we can agree to disagree”. No you are wrong the world is round. But you use an excuse to dampen the reason and even a conscience that may tell you….. wow I may be wrong.

In regards to this post, several comments and ideas in regards to this post are quite concerning.

“I definitely give in to a lot of sin every day. Humans can’t help it!” Pluckymama
“Like a lot of us have tried and failed at being “sinless”. Not an easy task. Not a realistic goal.” Pluckymama
“I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” Galatians 2:20 The Bible
“Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not conforming yourselves to the former lusts, as in your ignorance; but as He who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, because it is written, “Be holy, for I am holy.” 1 Peter 1:13-16 The Bible

Why would God give us an “unrealistic goal”. Unless of course it isn’t unrealistic.
“I can’t see how a loving God would condemn someone to hell because they couldn’t help themselves. I truly believe that some/most homosexuals are born that way.” ”I totally think gay people can be Christians. I totally think they aren’t the worst of the worst and I totally think that Christ would love the church to accept them more. Not because being gay isn’t “sin” (I don’t think it isn’t and I don’t know if it actually is), not because they need to be current and get with the times but because we are all with sin. We are all in denial of how sinful we actually are.” Pluckymama
“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
 Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.” Romans 1:18-28

I think the word of God is very clear about how God feels about Homosexuality. It is sin and sin is something that God hates. You said that you could not see God sending someone to hell for doing something they cannot help. If that was true we would all be in heaven. Because we all eventually may sin after we except Christ the Bible teaches us that we are to be Holy. This is a moment by moment choice. We can live for ourselves or we can chose to live for Christ. We can chose to sin or chose not to.

Because man has chosen sin thru Adam we to have the ability to sin. The choice of Sin bears results , ALWAYS. Because of the exchange of Truth for a lie, God has allowed man to die in his sin. Christ can to reveal Truth. Sin bears it’s own consequence, death.

Read that last quote from Romans again.

I think the real scary thing is the view of many people who a self claimed Christians. Who picture Jesus as a “it’s okay, do what ever you want to do. It’s cool. Money changers go ahead and sell in the temple. As long as you love God it’s okay.” NO… with a fire in his eyes he turned the table over and made the people run out with fear as he yelled “’My house will be called a house of prayer,’but you are making it a ‘den of robbers.”

If you know Christ as your saviour you don’t want to Sin! You want to serve your master!!!! You want to do everything you can to please the master, you want the homosexuals to know the same freedom that you have experienced from your own burden of sin!!!!

“There is a generation that is pure in its own eyes, 
      Yet is not washed from its filthiness. 
       There is a generation—oh, how lofty are their eyes! 
      And their eyelids are lifted up.” Proverbs 30:12-13

If you know the what God word says and chose to support sin God has a few other things to say, the last verse of the passage I quoted out of Romans,

“who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.”Romans 1:32 The Bible
If it’s just about sexual orentation, what’s next? What about those who like to have sex with Children or Animals? Are they not to be granted the same support?
50 years ago to take the Lord’s name in vain was a horrible thing to hear in public, Now it’s to be a Bible believing Christian.
“You who love the LORD, hate evil!
        
 He preserves the souls of His saints; 
        
 He delivers them out of the hand of the wicked.” Psalm 97:10

By: Dan on February 7, 2008
at 8:16 am

Oh my…that was the longest comment in the history of mankind! Not easy for an ADDer to read well.

I hate it when people spout off Bible verses to me. I’m sure you could find a verse for just about anything if you take just the one verse and put it into your own context.

I’m no Bible scholar and I don’t proclaim to be. One thing I DO know is that the basis of the gospel is that Christ died to forgive our sins PERIOD.

So, when I read all of these verses and don’t know the context from which they are coming because it’s just a portion of a letter that was written for a specific church 2000 years ago I think to myself “OK, how does this fit into the gospel?”.

AND I can agree to disagree with people. I don’t think God is in a box and I think that people interpret the Bible their own way. Christ wouldn’t have been so mysterious if he wanted things to be cut an dry. PLUS, I’m OK that people disagree with me because I’m sure I’m wrong sometime but I hold fast to what my heart and my mind feel about Grace.

Dan-o you tell me when you’re without sin and I’ll send you a cookie. Until then you better start praying pretty stinking hard because if you think it’s your works that get you through those pearly gates then I guess we’re all going to Hell in a hand basket. Sinless doesn’t just mean outward sin, there’s the inward sin as well and I believe that is the most dangerous for yourself.

By: pluckymama on February 7, 2008
at 10:02 pm

Plukymama I want you to understand that I do hear you and have spent much time thinking and praying about your thoughts and opinions.

I recognize that I came to you on my terms and did not fully listen to all you were saying. I have been deepened in my thoughts through this process.

I understand your position on grace and I think the reason you take such a strong stance is because of the sins of the institutional church. The institutional church has typically shun people who are homosexuals, alcholic’s, prostitutes, sexually addicted, drug addicts etc… I think it is because people in church do not always know or don’t feel comfortable with people who are not like minded or strong on moral values. Christ was able to sit with these people freely and spoke against the institutional church of that day. I agree we put more value on moral choices because it is easier to read people and feel comfortable around them based on what we see externally.

Christ calls us to share Gods Love with people who are sick, hurting and lost but yet overall the church has spent more time caring for the righteous.

In saying this I don’t believe the God of the Old Testament and of New Testament and the God of Today has changed. I know the feeling you share about disbelief on some of the judgements on people and the result of hell. But I look at the God who allowed Job to suffer the death of his children, boils and other horrible things and wonder how God could have allowed that to happen to Job. The God who killed off all the people of the world in a huge flood, that killed kids as well while Moses sailed off. The God who hardened Pharohs heart making it next to impossible to obey God while God placed horrible plaques on him and his people. The God who killed Davids child because of Davids sins. The God who killed Ananias & Sapphira for lying and so on. Their is many things that God has done that makes no sence to me or that I feel is unfair, unjust and cruel.

I believe God gave us His Word to give us direction, support, encouragement, correction and lots and lots of love. I do find it hard to understand some of it but I find it harder sometimes to obey it.

I am also on this blog as Olsaner, I felt like sharing with you in a different context. I grew up with a dad who beat me with a 2×4 and preached at me with the Bible all the time.

I know this is long so I will stop their.

By: Jeremy on February 8, 2008
at 3:28 am

Pluckymama I am sorry but i disagree with your view. And I am curious about your response above. I want to share with you my thoughts but I must speak hard words: in light of the scriptures I would wonder if you are even born again. paul says to examine yourself to see if you are in the faith I would encourage you to do so but in comparison to God’s word and not others who profess to be christian. for someone that claims to have been regenerated you are missing the whole first part of the Gospel call which is REPENT. The Gospel call is not come to jesus so you can be happy! it is repent and believe! Repentance is the foundation of one being born again. You claim to have had this experience with the creator of heaven and earth yet you have not been changed and seem apathetic towards your failures. Someone who does not make much of sin is someone that I doubt has the work of holy spirit which is to convict the world of sin to be very active in their life. The whole message of the Gospel is that God’s wrath had to be appeased his righteous judgement had to be given but rather crush us he crushed His son. That is why when you read it pleased God to crush Him we can see that God’s justice stands.

There is no such thing as a gay chromosome. when you find it let God know. Being homosexual is only a symptom of the greater problem which is all of us are born evil. Check out genesis 6 and jesus even says even you who are evil when talking to men. Romans 1-3 can help you out as well. Christianity of the west is almost totally wrong. about 100-150 years ago something crept into our theology and gospel that is called humanism that has made the whole plan of salvation about mans happiness which could not be further from the truth. Then we see the entrance of the fundamentalist movement that has reduced the plan of God’s salvation of men down to an accent to a formula meaning if you say yes to these statements of doctrine and pray this prayer then you are saved. This is the greatest heresy in the Church today. You can not find that anywhere in scripture! Romans 10:14 is about as close as you can get to it but it is not what is being said. All people are doing is reciting a superstitious prayer that has no power. In 1 John 5 we read that “He that has the Son has life!” It does not say there is life in some prayer we make up. you quoted galatians 2:20 if it is no longer you living and Jesus living in you is Jesus or you doing the sinning? In Ezekiel 36:22-38 we can see a beautiful picture of God regenerating evil men and giving them a new heart. when you look at this in light of being born again you can see that when God does a work in you and you are regenerated it will last and he will move you to keep his laws and decrees. Please I beg you don’t be one of those that will one day hear Jesus say away from me i never knew you. Read matthew 7:22 and on then notice that he saws away from me you who practice lawlessness. In the greek translation it is described as someone who lives with out a law. there is absolute truth and standards for us to live by. It is not legalism but it is a response of love to our God. Jesus says if you love me you will obey me. Are you loving him. All of our knowledge and all of our love should produce acts of obedience and the proof that you are a child of God is that after you heard the Gospel that He moved in your heart and the sin you once loved you now hate and the sin you were apathetic towards you now run from. if you have understood the Gospel you would not be okay with sin but you would run from everything that caused the death of your saviour. remember you profession of faith in christ means nothing. In matthew 7 many are going to say lord lord and he is going to say away from me i never knew you. God does promise us happiness and peace but as a by product of our relationship with Him. Read hebrews and ask yourself am I an illegitimate daughter because those who God loves he disciplines. Be afraid if you cannot see Gods discipline. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit and every tree that does not bear fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. We were saved by God, for God, and from God. Who else but God could endure God’s wrath? I don’t hate homosexuals or drunkards. That is why I am on the streets every week seeking after the lost. I must ask though Was there a change in your life when you prayed or whatever your salvation experience looked like? Did the old pass away and the new come? Because this is evidence of those who are in christ.

By: standup on February 8, 2008
at 3:51 am

“You claim to have had this experience with the creator of heaven and earth yet you have not been changed and seem apathetic towards your failures”

Who said I have not changed? Who said I am not apathetic towards my failures?

“There is no such thing as a gay chromosome”

no there’s x chromosomes and y chromosomes. None that look like rainbows that I know of. I was born with ADHD but there aren’t any chromosomes for that…or brown hair…or male pattern baldness. So I wont be finding it. I’m sure God is well aware of the reasons why people are homosexual.

“Being homosexual is only a symptom of the greater problem which is all of us are born evil”

We are all born sinners. I wouldn’t say evil.

You’re into Matthew 7
22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Those people are saying “Look at all our hands have done!! We worked so hard for you! We’ve done all these wonderful acts” Too bad that it’s not our actions that get us into Heaven.

Stand-up I do agree with some things that you say but it almost seems to me that your theology is less mainstream than mine. Baffling.

Yes, I do believe that I am “born again” “saved” “a Christian” etc. I don’t believe it was my magic prayer that saved me. Nor me turning from my wicked ways (I’m actually a very moral and upstanding citizen). I believe it was Christ’s death on the cross that saved me.

We can’t actually run from sin. What a nutty statement! And if we love God we do our best. I love my husband and I don’t always get it right. I love my children and I don’t always get it right. Loving God can’t mean being sinless because it’s impossible!!! Running from sin is impossible! Striving for the better good is possible. No longer feeling guilty and no longer feeling like a loser is possible because we can rejoice in the grace Christ has bestowed upon us!!!

Again, I’m not saying that Homosexuality isn’t a sin. What I’m saying is that it’s dang hard for them not to be what they are. They want love just as badly as the rest of us do. They need Christ just as badly as I do.

I will always struggle with my sin just as they are. Their sin happens to be a little more taboo than my pride or my jealousy or my self loathing. Doesn’t mean they can’t come to church. Doesn’t mean we can’t love them with open arms. Doesn’t mean we can’t accept them as Children of Christ!

We all go through different walks of life. I might have ended up a drug addict on the streets if my life had been different. Perhaps if it took a few other turns I may have been a prostitute. Perhaps if I hadn’t had that little something in my life I might have thought i was gay too. You can’t judge people!! You have not walked in their shoes, you have NO FREAKING CLUE!!! How can God say yes to the people who are more moral because they had a bright a shiny childhood? Who weren’t beaten as children so all of their neurological bits and pieces are healthy and right where they should be?

I believe Grace is more than just a gold star for good behavior. Grace isn’t conditional!! Christ died for people’s sins yet we’re all out there trying to atone for them still.

I’m not taking the grace bestowed to me from the cross for granted. I’m embracing it. I’m saying YES to grace. YES to doing what is right because God wants me to lead a fulfilling life. YES to not feeling guilty all of the time. I think that continuing to earn God’s grace is taking it in vain. He bled and died so that we can stop trying to earn our grace because it’s not possible!!!

Yes, turn from your wicked ways because it’s good, because it’s healthy, because God wants that for us!! NOT because you’re going to get extra brownie points!

By: pluckymama on February 8, 2008
at 6:20 am

Plukymama, I admire your passion and conviction. I see more of what you are saying with your desire for how we share the grace of God with everyone without limits or hesitations.

The way that I have seen my purpose in life is in reflection to God being glorified.

God has brought me to the edge of the Grand Canyons, they are majestic, beautiful, awe inspiring, and move me beyond anything. When I stand at the edge I do not think about sin, what I do or have done, why I am here, or anything that leads to “ME”, all I experience is the glory of something much bigger and beautiful than myself. Standing at the edge invokes change in me because I don”t want any distractions or any thing of myself to get in the way of what I am experiemcing. That is what it is like for me to be glorifying God in my life.

When I am focused on Him I want to stay their forever so I work at the things in life that distract me or keep me away from the edge of the Grand Canyons (the Glory Of God)
I became a christian, not the day I said my prayer but the day I willingly stood at the edge of the Grand Canyons because of Christ, the moving of the Spirit and the Grace of God
My concern with your comments is; does it help people who are living in sin and are lost, hurting and in need of God’s love come to the edge of the Grand Canyons where they can experience the Glory of God, want to be part of it and would rid their lives of anything that keeps them from more of it.
One of the ways we Glorify God is sharing with others the experience of God’s Glory and being a voice of love as Christ was and is. To help all desire the same experience and to help all to experience more as we ALL rid ourselves of things that distract us and keeps focused on self.

By: olsaners/Jeremy on February 8, 2008
at 6:17 pm

Jer-

I’m glad you’re understanding me more.

I feel that glory whenever I see something spectacular in nature. All I see is God’s love for me pouring out of the amazing playground he made for me. I loved the Grand Canyon!

There’s nothing wrong with staying focussed on God AT ALL! but I still think God wants you to focus on yourself too. All the things that he called “sin” are unhealthy things for our body, our minds, our relationships or our spirits. It’s good for us to not sin. I really believe that’s why those rules are there. God wants us to be happy SO badly!! There’s nothing wrong with self, nothing wrong with flesh. It was made by God and it is loved by God (more than we love and adore an want the best for our own children).

I think there is value in self, in life, in flesh. God wouldn’t have given us emotion and love and ORGASMS if he didn’t want us to focus on self. He’s in all of it! Taking care of our selves glorifies God as well.

By: pluckymama on February 8, 2008
at 6:34 pm

hey Plucky thank you for sharing with me.

I want to clear up any thoughts that I am saying we are working for our salvation. When I speak about obeying His commands I mean that because He has given us a new heart and a new spirit He
moves us to keep His laws and decrees. I am not speaking of sinless perfection but I know with God all things are possible.

I want to respond to some of your statements so I will copy and paste here:

(plucky) I’m sure God is well aware of the reasons why people are homosexual.

I believe this too. He knows we are evil! He sees our depravity. I often hear that the cross is this beautiful symbol of how valuable we are. I see it as a symbol of how depraved and vile we are that it took God’s own son to be crushed by God on it! This is not some interpretation of scripture. (Romans 3:12)

(Gen 6:5) The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

(plucky)We are all born sinners. I wouldn’t say evil.

(Rom 3:11) no one understands; no one seeks for God.

(Rom 3:12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.”

(Rom 3:13) “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.”

(Rom 3:14) “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”

(Rom 3:15) “Their feet are swift to shed blood;

(Rom 3:16) in their paths are ruin and misery,

(Rom 3:17) and the way of peace they have not known.”

(Rom 3:1 8) “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

(Rom 3:19) Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

(PLUCKY) 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

(plucky)Those people are saying “Look at all our hands have done!! We worked so hard for you! We’ve done all these wonderful acts” Too bad that it’s not our actions that get us into Heaven.

These people are saying “what I thought I was saved!” but I did all this for you! Just because God uses you does not mean things are good between you and Him. If He can make rocks sing and donkeys speak we should embrace this.

(Mat 7:21) “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

My question is are we doing the will of the Father?

Jesus told Nicodemus that unless a man is born again he will not see the Kingdom of Heaven! The essence of what I have said is no one can be a Christian just by praying a prayer. the reality of your regeneration is not going to come from anything man can produce. It is a supernatural work of God! He has set us free why do we want to wallow around in our old lifestyles? God says that He will clean us. It seems many people have misunderstood the cross of Jesus. He died not to save us from sin but to save us from God’s wrath. We deserve death and I believe that the reason the Bible says that God cannot look upon sin is because every time He looked at us He would have to judge us because he is holy and just. God loves mercy so He died on the cross for us! But it was not to save us from sin it was to save us from himself because He had to appease His justice and rather crush feeble men He crushed His son. Sin though was a big enough deal that someone had to die. We must get away from this deification of man and focus from ourselves and focus on God. man does not need more self esteem it is our biggest problem. It is time for us to esteem the only one worthy of esteem. Look at our Christian book stores 75% of the books there deal with how empty we are and how to have your best life now and that is because many of those you profess to have Jesus never truely met Him. He told the woman at the well He had living water for her and if she drank of it she would never thirst again. If this is true why are so many christians filling there lives with more stuff instead of the bread of life?

By: standup on February 8, 2008
at 7:53 pm

Why do you say “crushed”??

“man does not need more self esteem it is our biggest problem. It is time for us to esteem the only one worthy of esteem.”

that was a really ignorant statement. God wants us to have self esteem. We’re his children! I’m raising my kids to have as much self esteem as possible!! People are hurting out there. Reading your Bible and praising God MORE isn’t going to change the fact that people have had messed up lives. God gave us brains to help ourselves through self-help books, doctors, psychologists. Praising God more is good…not going to fix your issues. It’s good for you to mull through issues.

This whole crazy thought that God wants us to be drones who have no sense of self and no value to our own person seems so very wrong to me. God didn’t create mankind and call it evil, he called it “good”.

Perhaps those of those who’d like to rebuke our own worth and flesh could go join some gnostic cult and stop making people think that God wants us to suffer for him like a little kid with a magnifying glass on an ant farm!

God does NOT get his jollies off seeing people hurting!! At least not the God I worship!

By: pluckymama on February 8, 2008
at 8:50 pm

My wife and I have enjoyed intamacy more because we are both focused on glorifying God. I think the things that satisfy us that are God annoited are a byproduct of our focus on glorifying Him. I have enjoyed life in ways I cannot explain or give imagry to because I have stood at the edge of the Grand Canyons of His Glory.

I come to a place in discussion that I feel can not go much deeper than this. I truly believe in the authority of Scripture, I believe strongly that God’s Word is not that hard to understand but is hard to obey. I agree with your desire for grace to be poured out but I believe it must be poured out of a personal desire and conviction for holiness in our own lives. We can discuss forever views in reflection to our own thoughts and feelings but I believe Gods Word has so much more to offer.

You and I have met personally through your brother and sister-in-law. I have been part of a worship team in the past with Leanne at Cedar and am part of their small group at Wellspring.

I pray that you and I will be transformed into how God wants us to show and share His grace in light of Holiness.

By: olsaners/Jeremy on February 8, 2008
at 9:02 pm

Ya I know that you’re in their small group. I don’t remember meeting you though…

We could go on forever. I’m glad I’m making people think though, you all are making me think hard too. That’s all I want out of this blog, to stir the pot and promote thought.

Hope to see you on my next post.

By: pluckymama on February 8, 2008
at 9:06 pm

Thanks for challenging my thoughts, I feel that the Holy Spirit brought me to your blog not because it is providing new truths but because we should learn better how to live out His Truth.

May God Bless you in your journeys and transform your mind and heart as he does with me.

By: olsaners/Jeremy on February 8, 2008
at 9:18 pm

Plucky I know you have misunderstood everything I have said. more than that it seems you have a problem with what I have said in earlier comments. I am not giving interpretations I am giving you Gods word so the problem is with the Bible.

I said “crushed” because the Bible say’s crush!

You misunderstood what I said about self esteem.

At first God may have said the whole of creation is good but why later would God look at man and say He was greived that He even made us. Why then did He destroy sodom and gomorah? Why did He flood the earth to kill evil men? Why did he

We will have self esteem as His children, we will have peace, we will have joy. But only as a by product of our relationship with Him. We will live abundantly when he is able to Live and breathe through us. It is not about being a mindless drone. Our total being though should be to love, honor, and glorify our Jesus. Like I said earlier He saved us for Himself that we would be a holy nation the apple of His eye. Those in Christ are now a royal priesthood. All these blessings will be ours when we lose ourselves in his perfect will. Everything we do in service is going to be out of a loving and grateful heart. We must remember, he that has been forgiven much will love much. Its a natural response. When people look at us they should know that there is a God in Heaven and His power brought a dead man back to life and it is not only Jesus but us who belong to Him. We once were dead in our sins but He gave us new life! We must live out lives in light of eternity not the temporal. Until you reach this you are missing the reality of what is really going on.

I have children and a wife as well and yes I know that people have messed up lives out there but the reason that is true is because evil men made stupid choices and were not loving their neighbor.

It is not God’s will any should suffer but we all have the freedom of choice and stupid people can make stupid decisions. I have traveled to Africa and Europe. I have been to south America. And everywhere I have been I see men supressing the truth. I see kids living in poverty while there government leaders live in mansions. It is horrible and unjust but that is only the evidence of wicked and depraved men. In South Africa right now kids are starving and dying I have seen this and yet men are fighting and keeping people from bringing aid. Don’t talk to me about men being somewhat good! why do you think god sends his people to help! Because God is love HE MUST HATE the sin and actions of men and women that hurt others. If men would humble themselves and listen to what God is saying and learn from what He revealed this world would be different!

Does all the Bible make sense to me? Not everything but I am growing and His spirit is leading. But I cannot make a God to fit what I want or sounds nice to me.

By: standup on February 8, 2008
at 10:30 pm

I don’t misunderstand what you’re saying. I’m just pointing out the holes in what you are saying. And you are doing the same back to me.

“I am not giving interpretations I am giving you Gods word so the problem is with the Bible.”

I know you’re not giving me interpretations. Like I said before, I hate it when people spout off Bible verses to me. I can find a verse that, by itself, without proper interpretation will make you feel like you should cut off your hand or gouge out your eye. A Bible verse, on it’s own, can mean absolutely anything.

This has gotten really off topic.

Even though you can’t agree to disagree, I can! I’m now closing comments. The purpose of this post was to show people that Gay people are loved by God also!! The church has turned their back on them and it’s time to welcome them. I know some fabulous gay people.

I hope I at least reached one person!

By: pluckymama on February 8, 2008
at 10:48 pm

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